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Gameplay Upgrades

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Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Whilst reminiscing about the disparity in matchups/ranking in the old Blood Pit days, Dux reminded me of a similar situation that existed in Duelmasters, except the DM approach rewarded the younger gladiator for the mismatch.  I see no reason why this reward system cannot be worked into BP.

In Duelmasters, if your gladiator was training in skills and fought a warrior with much greater number of fights, your gladiator stood a chance to learn more skills as a result of fighting a veteran warrior.  Now, the training system in DM was a bit different than in BP.  In DM, you would simply put 'skill' in one of the training slots and not have any control over how many or which skills your gladiator picked up.  So the bonus would come in the form of learning say, 3 or 4 skills instead of 2 (or training in the always popular nothing).  As per Dux's suggestion, the benefit would translate to BP in the form of increasing the chance of learning whichever particular skill(s) your gladiator is attempting to train.  Stat trains would not be effected by this.

I had a flash-fastforward vision and witnessed scores of gladiators downchallenging for stats, and up-challenging for skills.

The present ranking system seems to be working quite well and would be a good metric for determining the percentage boost to the training attempt.  If your gladiator's foe is ranked 18% higher in the rankings, your gladiator gets an 18% boost to his/her skills training.

Dux also suggested a negative effect, so if your gladiator is facing an opponent further down the rankings, s/he would have a more difficult time in skills training.  This should nicely offset the bonus, thus restoring the balance of skill trains.  Duelmasters did not contain this counter to the skills training bonus.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Suggestions? Tweaks?

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Last edited by Vic Vegas on Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:28 pm

I think it should work for both stats and skills. Why limit it to just skills?

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:20 pm

When facing someone with more fights experience, you are bound to learn some tips or tricks as far as skills are concerned. I don't see how facing someone with greater experience would work towards increasing a stat. With age comes wisdom, and bits of that wisdom can be picked up by others.

I counter the argument that facing an older strong warrior might "inspire" your gladiator to pump iron a little harder so he can be stronger too... but it is possible to face stronger warriors with less experience. Would not that be a motivation as well? Look at that young, pipsqueak! He's SO strong... I gotta work out even harder!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Game-balance is far more important than absolute realism IMO.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:47 am

I thought of an additional skill which might help several weapons at higher levels.

CLEAVE

The cleave skill could help great axes penetrate heavy armor and maces smash through parries. Any kind of weapon that is used in a smashing fashion would be helped. Pole-axe & halberd (could imbalance these weapons), all the axes, all the hammers, ball & chain, great staff & quarterstaff, picks, maul, shields(?), broad, long, bast*rd, great swords & scimitars would all be helped.

Still no succor for the net, scythe, flails, epee, dagger, knife.

Thoughts?

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:11 pm

Well, it just occured to me that the problem is solved rather simply by just making charge equally applicable to all weapons and it comes down to simply putting your momentum and body-weight behind a strike. Currently charge benefits every weapon a little (at least that's how the game was originally coded), but gives much larger bonuses to certain weapons (polearms).

The other option just to create two new skill sets to add to modified versions of charge and lunge:
1. Charge - Adds damage to thrusting type weapons that are size 4.5+. (only used in thrusting attacks).
2. Lunge - Has both general and specific to hit bonuses. For thrusting weapons size 4.5 or less and gives a general to hit bonus with any style when a thrusting or stabbing attack is executed (only for thrusting weapons of size 4.5 or less). Also gives a specific to hit bonus with the styles of lunge and e&w when those styles' lunge tactic is employed with any sized pointed weapon.
3. Bash - Has both general and specific damage bonuses. Can be used with any blunt weapon (only used in smashing attacks). Has a specific damage increase when the bash style's bash tactic is employed.
4. Cleave - Has both general and specific damage bonuses (the general damage bonus is only used in cleaving, slashing attacks with edged weapons 4.5+). Has a specific larger damage increase when the slash style's slash tactic is employed with and edged weapon of any size.

This second option is super interesting to me, but would definitely give advantage to more intelligent warriors which could be a game balance issue... If there were some way to keep the balance, it would be SUPER FUN though because it would add a lot more depth to the game in warrior design, strategies, skills etc as well as more depth when actually reading fights!

The first solution is the simplist to do. The second solution would require a lot of coding for adding the skills and also for coding the division general attacks. Currently the code does not differentiate between general attack types that are not style specific special attacks. What I mean by that is for example when you are using the the strike style and your warrior lunges or slashes or whatever, those attacks are all just the same thing from the codes perspective. There is a random pool of attack lines that it pulls from that makes it look different to the players (adds color to an otherwise bland process). The attacks would have to be divided up and connected to weapons and the weapons would also need to be coded to connect to certain attack options. A broadword would have cleaving, slashing, bashing, striking and charging options. A maul would have only bashing, striking options...

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Perhaps the first step would be to see how implementing charge across a broader range of weapons and styles effects gameply.

Then, in a test arena, implement cleave/bash and see what happens.

This gets me thinking about attack lines.  Perhaps some variables describing the weapons would help select from a pool of possible attack lines.  Two obvious descriptors would be 'metal' and 'wood'.  From which you could get descriptor lines such as torchlight or sunlight flickering off some metal bit of the weapon as it wickedly assails its foe.  

It would be fun to come up with a list of new attack lines.  I must say, I enjoyed searching for and posting fumble lines, it wouldn't hurt to do the same with attack lines.  Except, I don't want a catalog of existing attack lines... I want a list of NEW ones.  Very Happy

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:52 pm

How about, as if through some magical force, a glimpse into a nether realm is invoked for each fight, which results in another tab in the BP Client, where you can see what the fight would look like without interference from the ref, making each alternate reality bout a fight to the death. Naturally, the alternate reality deaths would not be reflected in the newsletter, but it would provide a nice, fictional, gory read for the managers, would be rather simple to implement, and double the number of fights to read. Win, win, win.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:21 pm

I think it will have an unintended effect of giving people the mindset of what-ifs with every fight. "My warrior would have killed yours if only the ref hadn't interfered etc." I dislike that sort of thing. I say let there be one reality in this game. I think it would also take away some fo the attractiveness of the game as well as it would kill the imagination and speculation that goes into fights. In the short term it would be really exciting, but in the long term it would be a negative thing. As a trained fighter in real life, I HATE when people say, "Yeah, but if X had happened, I would have won!" My feeling is "Well, X didn't happen and you didn't win, so grow a pair and deal with life as it is not as you wished it had been." In that regard, I want BP to have only one story line. Hate that sort of alternate universe thing. Let people deal with the outcome of the fight as it is.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  The Badman on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:10 pm

Vic Vegas wrote:How about, as if through some magical force, a glimpse into a nether realm is invoked for each fight, which results in another tab in the BP Client, where you can see what the fight would look like without interference from the ref, making each alternate reality bout a fight to the death.  Naturally, the alternate reality deaths would not be reflected in the newsletter, but it would provide a nice, fictional, gory read for the managers, would be rather simple to implement, and double the number of fights to read.  Win, win, win.

vV

I thought about something similar but I think what would be more fun is to have the Pre-Fight option of having your warrior fight to the death. That would give you the option of fighting till you win or die. If two managers employed it and challenged with the same fighters it would allow managers to setup a fight to the death between two warriors.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:39 am

That would take some extreme confidence to send your gladiator out into the wilds of random matches with a "deathmatch" checkbox ticked. I would probably do it more often with young gladiators. Gruesome concept.

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Deathmatch

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:45 am

Interesting concept, Baddy. I think that would be rather interesting to see! I would hope that those fights would be flagged in the newsletter by some special marking like a ! or something, so that I could differentiate between regular kills and deathmatch kills in the hall of records. I would have two separate records for kills in such an event.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:08 pm

I think an exclamation point would be the perfect symbol!!!!!!!!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:20 am

Vic Vegas wrote:I think an exclamation point would be the perfect symbol!!!!!!!!

vV

Funny, I just thought about it for a second and realized that all kills are marked with !. (three them if I recall correctly).
So it would have to be a different mark... Crying or Very sad

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:02 pm

In the newsletter, challenges get an asterisk after the challenger's record. if someone dies it says "KILL!" in the minutes column. What if there was an exclamation point after the record?

BERGERON (425) (64-52-1) UGLUK (1875) (52-76-6)! 3 KILL!

And if there is a challenge, then it could look like this:

BERGERON (425) (64-52-1) UGLUK (1875) (52-76-6)*! 3 KILL!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:51 am

Yup! That'd do it.
Now all we need to do is get BP into your hands, Vic and it's all glitter and gold Very Happy

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:38 pm

Well, one can dream! Very Happy

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:55 am

Throw

Theoretically, anything can be thrown, not just the list of throwable weapons.  I recall Dux's attempts at making a perpetual thrower.  This should be a viable fighting style, not just a trick used at the beginning or ending of each fight.  I think the best way to implement this would be to assign a throw bonus to all the currently throwable weapons, and a throw penalty for others.  Sure, your thrower picked up a ball and chain but he very well may hit himself with it (or both gladiators!) when he pitches it.  More than likely he will miss, but if he wants to toss a B&C he's more than welcome.  While working up the inertia to throw such a beast, he will be open to attack from his opponent.

I see a greatstaff tumbling end over end, eventually jumping over the head of the thrower's opponent.

I see a thrower spinning 'round and 'round, building up momentum to pitch a maul.  A sweep from his opponent at this moment would cause extra fall damage.

The larger the weapon, the greater the chance of our thrower hero's opponent stealing the initiative.  Perhaps what would normally be an attack line, would become preparation for the throw, such as the above spinning, or winding up, or pulling way back, or what have you.  Chucking a long spear takes a lot more than a boar spear or javelin!

There's nothing preventing a spin then toss of a halberd to have the effect of the pole smacking the thrower in the side of the head after it has been released.  Spin spin whack!

I recall mention in the old pit of a thrower picking up rocks and tossing them at his opponent.  We can bring back the rocks!

Many detailed thoughts of how different classes of weapons would move from thrower to opponent have sprung to mind, in addition to the different types of preparation necessary for the throw, but I think this is enough info to get brains buzzing.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:31 pm

Yes, I agree. Bring back throwing rocks.

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Gameplay upgrades

Post  Cam_ on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:25 pm

Guys this chat is making me misty eyed Sad  as to how beautifully evolved my beloved Pitt could become!

Sigh, oh well I will get my guys to put an edge on some Target Sheilds just in case. I would love to see a Horc brute throwing one like a Frisbee!
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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:44 pm

Frisbee shield throwing?!?! I love it!

The buckler might finally become useful!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:02 am

The interesting thing about beefing up the throw style is that it would be a real trump-card to CS and Parry or any very low activity levels. In real life shields (to a great degree) and other weapons (to a lesser degree) could be used to knock thrown weapons down, but that would really ruin the throw style. Dodge intensive styles should do very well against Throw.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:15 pm

I think if the expanded throw style were incorporated into the game, it wouldn't have the same auto hit or miss mechanics that it enjoys now.  I see no reason why a shield couldn't block a thrown weapon, especially if it is one without a throw bonus.  It should be harder to parry a thrown stiletto than a thrown war flail.  I suppose if one were to really get detailed, a thrown flail could still flail around a parry attempt!  So maybe I should have said a thrown stiletto should be harder to parry than a thrown morningstar.  Yeah, morningstar.  Those would still be fun to throw!

Of course, there's the potential problem of your warrior being too weak to pick up, let alone throw whatever weapon they mind find on the ground.  It may be risky to have a low str warrior employ throw.  Imagine your 5 str hafling trying to pick up and throw a halberd!  That could certainly add color to the game.  I would like to see the occasional backfire when throw is being employed.

I think there should be a sharp drop-off of efficaciousness of weapons thrown once you get past most of the current crop of thrown weapons.  A thrower would presumably start with three weapons he's trained/training in.  And those three weapons would have throw bonuses.  Once those ships have sailed, so to speak, and your gladiator is left at the mercy of whatever is lying around (throwing the ref's lunch might get you killed!) his ability to dish damage will be diminished, unless he's smart enough to pick up the right weapons.  

Then there's the issue of some thrown weapons working better against certain types of armor. An advanced thrower might start with three different weapons he's mastered. Carrying a boar spear, hammer and stiletto, maybe. I'd have him start with the stiletto, and get off a quick hit! Or maybe, it would be better to throw the boar spear first and be less encumbered for the next two throws? Oh, the possibilities... the game mechanics could favor nuanced throw managing.

Hmmm... I'm imaginging a 17-17-12-15-3-7 elf thrower.  Or maybe a 17-17-12-17-3-5 helf.  If you wanna go crazy, then 17-17-14-17-3-3 helf thrower.  Wow.  He's got the str to pick up anything, the speed to throw quickly and accurately, and the int to pick up better weapons.  Sounds like a fun type of gladiator to run!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Vic Vegas on Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:37 pm

Hmmm... so what if presence was also a good stat for training something different than skill or stats?  What if you could put a perm location in a training slot and the higher your pre, the better the chance of you reducing a perm by 1-3 points.  Think of it as your gladiator visiting a different medicus each week he trains that perm area.  One of 'em might have a way to heal your guy a little.

My first thought was not to tie this to pre, but to just make it a slim (1 in a thousand?) chance of happening but still give it as an option.  Is your guy training in a perm slot while those around him are hitting the gym and learning how to perfect their murderous lunges? <queue dramatic music>

I see this being used for old fart gladiators who are all skilled up and already have crazy high stat trains... and maybe a pesky pop point. Heheheheh.

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

Post  Dux Mortalitas on Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:47 am

I actually like that idea, Vic. Healing perms with Pre. It would at least give some value to pre. I think that it would only heal 1 perm level if the training attempt was successful. The lower the perm level the easier it is to heal it. A level 8 perm would be like training a stat up from 7 to 8 or something like that. If you warrior had a low pre, it would take forever!

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Re: Gameplay Upgrades

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