New Disarm?

Keeper's argument is that there was an imbalance at work with how the old Disarm was implemented.

My argument is that we can no longer design warriors who can use Disarm as a tactic.

What are your thoughts/vote on the topic?

Disarm is definitely a complete waste to train as far as I can tell. I had a currently-deceased warrior with a master in disarm who never disarmed anyone. They used a small weapon, and I have a guess that damage to the arms is the primary driver here. I'm not really sure what disarm is supposed to do any more.

I never thought disarm was imbalanced (certainly not overpowered). It was an attack that did no damage, and your opponent drawing a new carried weapon is pretty much a free action as far as I can tell. There was a nice benefit if you could disarm all of a foe's weapons, since they might pick up something stupid (or fail to pick up anything). I used to always try to train my upper-level gladiators to a 19 intelligence just to help counter disarms (pick up a better weapon).

On a similar note, shields seem to shatter pretty easily these days.

Don't forget to vote in the poll, Modofo.

Yeah, shields have been breaking a lot more often as of late.  But I'll take flimsier shields when paired with more weapons bashing through parries, sweeping and punching into armor.

I’m seeing more Bash Throughs, but with 25 STR guess that is a given.  Do like the increase in shields getting shattered..as it should be.

Keeper's top two reasons for making changes to the game:

Keeper wrote:1. Address balance issues where something is unbeatable by any existing mechanic (known or unknown to players).
2. Address balance issues where something is useless in the vast majority cases relative to its cost (also known or unknown to players).

The best example of #1 that springs to mind, comes from before I was playing the game.  A mgr discovered the dreaded combo of bstard sword/tower shield humans.  They were unstoppable.  Keeper made some changes to fix that situation.  Another example would be quarterstaff halflings.  Look at the first UW winner:
DYNAMITE (Bandit) 28-0-3 (28 fight streak) Halfling - Quarterstaff

I still chuckle when I see people making quarterstaff halflings, cuz they do very well, until they hit a year old.  Then it is all downhill.

But, I digress.

Keeper said his changes to Disarm fall under Reason #2.  He clearly understands statistics and programming and math way way way better than I.  But I'll tell ya, it is worth being useless in the vast majority of cases to have the flavor and FUN of the old Disarm back.  I no longer have any fears about my guy getting disarmed and whooped when facing a known disarmer.  I mean, there's no such thing as a known disarmer any more.

I think that elves have been hit the hardest by the change.  They're barely more popular than halflings, which didn't used to be the case.  Finesse elves and disarm were a marriage made in heaven.  Sure, he may lose the fight after two hits from a maul, but he's still got a great chance to win, after he (hopefully) quickly disarms his much slower and stronger foe.

I think a good analogy would be: soft drink consumption.  Everyone knows that soda rots your teeth and gives you brain cancer (to quote Neil from The Young Ones) but that doesn't stop hordes of people from consuming it.  When I was a soda drinker, I loved the sweet fizziness.  The burping was an extra bonus.

Despite the inevitable wasted attack(s) from failed disarm attempt(s), managers would still send their gladiators out in the hopes their foes would end up weaponless.

Do I miss youngling gladiators with no trains in disarm, sometimes attempting to disarm their foe, and wasting an attack?  Not really, but we still see such things with Sweep.

Modofo wrote:I used to always try to train my upper-level gladiators to a 19 intelligence just to help counter disarms (pick up a better weapon).

Bumping up Int is a good strategy to help your poor, disarmed schmuck pick up the right weapon.  If you want to really increase his chances of getting the right weapon, then you also want to train Open Hand.  The gladiator does a quick check when finds a weapon:  Will I do more damage now?  But if he's weaponless and has Open Hand trains, then quite often the answer to that question is a resounding NO, and the untrained weapon will stay on the ground.  

I categorize Open Hand skills as "insurance" trains, and they are not a priority, but eventually you will want your old-fart fighter to master it.  Obvs, if you have a weaponless Martial Combat gladiator, then Open Hand falls out of the "insurance" category and into "mandatory".

Modofo wrote:I had a currently-deceased warrior with a master in disarm who never disarmed anyone. They used a small weapon, and I have a guess that damage to the arms is the primary driver here.

Me too!  Er, Me three!  I think APPLE NEWTON might still be a Monster if it hadn't been for the Disarm change.  I think he very well might have disarmed JORAC's greatswords with his much faster javelins and then turned him into Swiss cheese.

The one that really hurt was CERATOPSIAN, who was one of my better Stilettoeers.  If he hadn't mastered Disarm (very late in life) he would have gone for more stat raises instead, which very well might have kept him alive long enough to become a Monster.

9-17-15-12-5-13 started
19-25-25-20-12-13 died 146-92-4 (no pop points)

He was definitely on track to become a 25-25-25-25-12-13 beast.

10 masters, including throw and open hand.  He picked up 19 str and 25 Dex near the end of his life and he was so brutal.  Had he ignored Disarm, he would have had at least a 20 str going into his last fight, which might have made the difference from the extra damage inflicted and another .5 hit points.  As with Modofo's gladiator, CERATOPSIAN never disarmed anyone, even after mastering Disarm.  Not too long after, I emailed Keeper and got the official lowdown on the new Disarm situation.

How about if Disarm had higher % of success AND retained the 'not counting as an attack' change that has been made?

That's my vote.

I like the old system because you get to read about your gladiator doing something, even if it results in failure, rather than the passive system of something happening to the weapon.  With the current system a disarm is not attributable to a gladiator.